#this isn't anti alicent

[fearthhereaper]

I'm glad they're making Aemond call Alicent out. She's puts Aegon on the throne and then acts naive about the consequences of it. Aemond, who got permanently disabled, has to listen to his mother defend a woman he partially blames and hates for it.

Alicent won't choose Rhaenyra over her kids, but her unwillingness to do her any harm will drive her kids away because they're the ones fighting and the ones losing something.

They're fighting this war for Alicent, for Alicent's wishes. And somehow, still, despite it all, despite all their devotion and loyalty, she would have them leave Rhaenyra (the figurehead of their enemies) unharmed.

Almost as if she's excusing and forgiving all that she's done (and didn't do, but that they still feel came from her as the leader of her fraction)

It must feel like such a slap in the face to him.

Another parent disregarding him, another parent choosing Rhaenyra over him, and this time it hurts more because it's his mother — the one person that stood up for him at Driftmark is now the one closing her eyes to the reality of the situation she got her kids in.

Blind just as Viserys once was.

[chemicalreal]

Rewatching episode 1x07 in light of recent events makes Alicent and Aemond's interactions with Aegon even more frustrating to watch. The writers seem intent on portraying him as clueless and dumb, despite in season 1 there is evidence to the contrary.

You have Aemond being harshly questioned by Viserys who at some point menacingly asks him who told him about Rhaenyra's children being bastards.

Aemond knows that he can't just throw Alicent under the bus because at least he and his brother are still the king's kin, so he knows nothing will happen to them (which isn't a guarantee for Alicent despite being the king's wife) regardless so he blames Aegon.

Now Aegon, who is FAR from stupid, immediately picks up what his brother might be actually doing without knowing the context (and let's remember, the two don't have a good relationship at this point and he could simply deny thinking Aemond is trying to put him in trouble to settle a score) and immediately plays along, even deflecting the argument to how there is no need to have a planted rumour because it's plain to see.

Throughout season 1, Aegon repeatedly demonstrates a greater awareness than other characters give him credit for. In the carriage scene he keeps acting skeptical to the news Viserys wanted him as heir, but Alicent as usual shuts him down even calling him stupid for doubting her love for him. Well, considering how things are going in season 2 he wasn't really wrong about that either, was he?

Season 1 Aegon would have immediately pointed out Alicent's hypocrisy for trying to diminish him in comparison to his father simply because contrarily to expectations he is not willing to be a mindless puppet like Viserys was. Aegon has already picked up on Otto and Alicent's real expectations of him. Why would he ask Alicent if she loves him? Because he genuinely doubt that especially now that he is being dragged to wear a crown out of nowhere. Friendly reminder that not being trained and literate doesn't automatically equate to being stupid.

Additionally, portraying episode 2 as Otto's grand triumph is just completely wrong. Otto, who has been manipulating everyone like pieces on a chessboard, finally gets booted off by the person he least expected it from. This comes after he shows no respect for his son's death, shamelessly declaring that he will parade his body for the sake of their image as the silent sisters were still sewing his head to his body. But of course, god forbid we don't immediately dumb down everything Aegon does, or the audience might start thinking he could actually be a fair competitor for the designated hero of the show.

[alicentflorent]

Succession writers knew how to write a women who was ambitious, flawed, underestimated, unjustly looked over and held to a higher standard for being a woman while being someone who isn’t a good person and does bad things for the sake of her success or for her family. HOTD wish they could pull that off.

[izzy140105]

Me watching Alicent get upset because the misogynistic and incel men she supported won't let her be Queen Regent while Aegon is crippled as shit:

[darkpoisonouslove]

I am sick of people constantly reducing Alicent's entire character down to her being in love with Rhaenyra. I can ship it and still see Alicent as a separate character. Granted, I don't like the character arc they've written for her because it's slow as hell, it completely destroys her agency and it strands her outside of the main plot but people need to shut up about how Alicent was about to drown herself because of Rhaenyra kissing Mysaria.

First of all, she wasn't even trying to drown herself. I know that line about not being sure if she means to return to King's Landing was suspicious but at what point did Alicent show she was trying to drown herself? She wasn't just floating in the water, she was actually, very leisurely, swimming so she clearly didn't mean to drown. And she took off her dress to remain only in her underclothes since her dress would have gotten heavy and dragged her down. She was actively trying to avoid that and keep her dress dry, which means she very much meant to get out of the lake.

Second of all, I know the joke is that Alicent can sense Rhaenyra kissed another woman but I've seen people genuinely not saying it as a joke. She doesn't have the faintest clue what the fuck is happening with Rhaenyra and here's the part y'all are not gonna like - she doesn't actually care. If she got any kind of feeling something was off, it would have been drowned out by everything else that is wrong in her life and she perceives as her fault.

This woman has been having an ongoing existential crisis since the second fucking episode of this season when she decided her grandchild's brutal murder was a punishment from the gods for her sins. Things have only gone downhill from there. In episode three Rhaenyra delivered a truth that disillusioned Alicent about her excuse for going against Viserys' wishes and against Rhaenyra. She didn't actually believe he changed his mind about who should inherit the throne but it did provide her with an excuse that would give her enough peace of mind for her to not fall apart and prioritize her children's safety. Only for her grandson to get decapitated and for Rhaenyra to make it impossible to remain in denial about her own decision to go against her husband's wishes.

Given who Alicent is as a person, that would have been enough to send her spiraling but she now has to deal with - in her perception - the fact that her attempt to avoid the pain of losing her children has resulted in Helaena losing her child. She literally feels that she traded her children's lives for Helaena's son's life and avoiding mourning her children comes at the price of her passing that pain onto Helaena... and Aegon. However, Alicent cannot bear to empathize with Aegon's pain because he is the embodiment of all the ruin in her life. He was her first child, the first product of Viserys maritally raping her and still, he has her heart. He was the main challenge to Rhaenyra's reign. He would have to be killed first before any danger came for his brothers. He was the main reason she had to do what she did and expose Helaena to all this pain because she still wanted to save him. Jaehaerys was the price they paid for Alicent's attempt to keep Aegon alive. She blames him just as much for Helaena's suffering as she blames herself and that's what stops her from comforting him.

And then all that comes back to hurt her AND the realm again. Because of her behavior and her words Aegon decided to prove himself and is now disabled and disfigured by his own brother. Now Aemond has caused his siblings pain and she can't help any of them. She can't do anything for Aegon and Aemond won't let her do anything for him. She gives Aemond contradicting feelings and a disgust for the vulnerability he shows because of her the same way Aegon gives her contradicting feelings and disgust about his vulnerability and her own.

And on top of that! There was a riot that threatened Helaena. And while Alicent was there to protect her, all her life's work, all her attempts to do right by the small folk and be a good queen have been erased by a war that she had to fight for the sake of her children's lives. Everyone she's been trying to protect hates her and/or has pulled away from her. Things are even tense and uncertain between her and Criston - the guy she literally saved from taking his own life by becoming his cause! She's having a fucking existential crisis that's been slowly progressing since the end of the first episode! Rhaenyra's not anywhere near the top of her list with priorities. If I'm not mistaken she hasn't really mentioned her since the scene in the Sept. She's mentioned Viserys a few times instead.

While I'm not a fan of the way they're writing her as completely disconnected from the main plot since she's too busy having a meltdown, Alicent is having her own arc that revolves way more around her children rather than around Rhaenyra. Her feelings for Rhaenyra certainly are a part of that arc since her refusal to let go of them is what has stopped her from acting a lot more decisively towards protecting her children (all she had to do was tell her guards Rhaenyra was there when she left the Sept and she would have ended the whole war) but they aren't the sole point of her character as people too often claim, even if it's in jest.

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

I have nothing against Alicent sleeping with Criston Cole. Even if it's revealed that she started sleeping with him while Viserys was still alive, I will still have nothing against it. She was in a loveless marriage with a man she did not choose so if she managed to find love somewhere else, good for her.

I do find her comments on Rhaenyra the previous season hypocritic, though ( and Cole's insults on Rhaenyra as well, but this post isn't about him). Girl, you shouldn't accuse a woman for having a relationship out of wedlock when you are doing the same thing! But I guess when I look Alicent as a character her hypocrisy makes sense, many conservatives are the same. They talk about virtues only they possess and that their opponents lack according to them, only to be revealed that they are as human as the rest of the world with the same weaknesses and that they do not possess the supposed "virtues" they preached about.

What I do find interesting is how many of Alicent's fans have fall for her hypocrisy. They try really hard to justify why Alicent's case isn't as Rhaenyra's instead of admitting that their fav is a hypocrite. In a show like Hotd which features rapists and child murderers being a hypocrite is far from being the worse offense. So let her be that way. She's more interesting as a person with flaws, instead of a mary sue who can't do no wrong as some of her stans trying to make her be.

[mailka]

No, but that Alicent/Rhaenyra scene is so stupid no matter how you look at it? That choice is not a choice and it never was, Alicent's sons were always going to die with Rhaenyra in power, we established that in s1. So it doesn't matter what Alicent says, it's never going to change that fact. So why the fuck she's surprised when Rhaenyra says that? What the fuck did she expect? "She didn't plan on killing her son", but what about Aemond and Daeron??? They are not disabled and have dragons and armies??? Alicent comes to Rhaenyra and is like "this war must end" but Aegon's head doesn't end the war??? "It gives her a chance to save Helaena and Jaehaera", does it? The premise of this whole deal that the war ends and Rhaenyra takes the throne but the war will not end with Aegon's death??? So pretty much all three of them are gonna to be held hostages until Rhaenyra deals with Aemond, Daeron and the rest of TG??? And that means that pretty much anything can happen during that time, especially with Daemon in proximity and Rhaenyra's religious zeal???

Alicent gets nothing from this deal. So where's that "Sophie's choice"? Aegon, Aemond and Daeron potential fates don't change, Helaena's and Jaehaera's potential fates don't change, the war is still going to continue for an unknown amount of time, so what was the point of it all? What was Aegon's coronation for if Alicent jumps the ship as soon as trouble arises?

This whole thing is so unbelievably stupid it's not even funny.

[lullaebies]

no because after that ryan condal interview it really hit me aegon was really was standing in the shadow of every dead son, every stillborn and every boy that died in the cradle in the pursuit of an heir. rhaenyra too, of course, but even she ended up as the girl viserys settled on the pacify his guilt.

viserys wanted baelon because it would make things easier for him. he could have his heir and go by the rules and traditions and not feel bad about aemma. aegon, and later on his brothers, only made the situation he put himself in worse and worse. he resented those kids for what they are and what they aren't.

[alicenthelaena]

Rhaenyra and Alicent's current depictions and fan receptions scream Madonna/Whore. The debased Alicent who audiences are feening to see humiliated vs the respected Rhaenyra whose husband has erectile dysfunction.

[spirit-meets-the-b0ne]

Spring breaks loose, but so does fear He's gonna burn this house to the ground

[helaenasaegon]

"SACRIFICES" Narcissistic Mothers'™️ Greatest Hits! 🙄

BITCH, DID HE FUCKING ASK?!? 🤨

[ride-thedragon]

don't be a hypocrite you don't love rhaenyra's character, what you do is always criticize her, better focus on netty and alicent and leave rhaenyra alone.

she is a victim of alicent but you ignore that fact because you want her to be a villain from the beginning. i bet,you think that book rhaenyra did something bad to criston cole when she was a child and that she deserves what he did to her.

(i agree with you that she is not a good person tho.but there are worse people/characters than her).

Do I say anything that's wrong?

Do I say anything that makes it seem like I'm so unempathetic to her that I can't fathom a world where people support her?

Criticism isn't hatred. I wish that was more normal.

I think I'm really nice about her and her family. I've never gone out of my way to hate on her as a character or outside specific circumstance.

I think I'm unambiguously weary of her as a character when I talk about Nettles. I push for an understanding or avoidance of her in that context because I don't think it's fair to blame her for the things Daemon does. I love blaming Daemon.

I don't make Rhaenyra a villian. What do you think is the system Alicent is perpetuating? What is she upholding?

Rhaenyra will always come short because she's not a man, her usurping is so normally justified because she's a woman.

Why would I think a 14 year old girl is egging a grown man on? Are you okay?

That's like saying show Alicent is doing the same thing or Baby Laena.

I love women, with a bias towards them anytime I talk. This isn't an in depth character analysis. This is a generalization for the benefit of understanding her complex character.

Saying this about her isn't saying that Daemon isn't burning in hell, or suddenly upholding Aegon II or preventing Larys from brutally dying (hopefully) .

When I care about them as characters outside of their multiple atrocities or one redeeming quality (Daemon core), I'll consider writing a character post about them.

I love Rhaenyra. I just talk about Nettles more because I like her more, and no one's corrupting Rhaenyra’s story to the point of mischaracterization and active plot denial.

I'm not denying that Rhaenyra is a victim.

And we agree that she's more complex than people allow for, which is the point I'm making.

[stromuprisahat]

Queen Alicent was arrested on the serpentine steps as she made her way back to her chambers. Her captors wore the seahorse of House Velaryon upon their doublets, and though they slew the two men guarding her, they did no harm to the Dowager Queen herself, nor to her ladies. The Queen in Chains was chained again and taken to the dungeons, there to await the pleasure of the new king. By then the last of her sons was already dead.

Fire and Blood (George R. R. Martin)

[vroomvroomvettel]

no hate for sophia floersch but there is one thing that makes me a bit mad about all the attention:

sophia is the first women to race in the fia f3 series so why is everyone talking about that she is the first succesfull woman? there was no competition in that series

and if we take the other series that were merged for fia f3 (gp3 and euro f3) then there were a lot of other women who scored points

Tati Caldaron

Sophia herself

and alice motherfckn powell my beloved (the one that sophia called slow scored a point in gp3 also with the shittiest car ever

I like that sophia is progressing and I wosh her all the best for her carrer but this is just boosting her pick me attitude

[thesilverlady]

What makes a story/a character a greek tragedy? What differences greek tragedy have with Shakespearean tragedy and any "tragic" story? Sorry if i asked too much 😅 but i see the word greek tragedy thrown randomly alot especially when it comes to Hotd and i don't get it

hey anon, great question but I'm gonna warn you the answer will be a bit long (it was impossible to keep it short 😓 I tried)

First of all I think fandoms like hotd just throw around the words "Greek tragedy" because they consider what their fav character has gone through a tragedy and to emphasize the big sad they gonna call it "Greek tragedy" to make it look all deep given the reputation and fame Greek tragedies have in literature alas they're all wrong so let's start.

What is a Greek tragedy?

To understand we need to start from what those plays were in the first place. Greek tragedies worked according to strict artistic and ethical guidelines, although these changed slightly depending on the dominant playwright of the time.

In general, Greek tragedies feature a character of ordinary moral virtue - so this means that the character, while isn't villainous, exhibits a realistic, but fatal flaw, known as hamartia.

Most of the time, the focus of a tragedy is on the protagonist’s psychological and ethical attributes, rather than their physical or sociological ones. As the action progresses, the character’s own failings drives them toward their downfall.

And although the character’s choices are vital, the tragic plot is considered more dominant than the character. This reflects the imperative of fate. The plot, like destiny, moves towards its inevitable tragic climax despite the character’s best efforts to avoid it. This dire outcome was intended to incite pity and fear in the audience - not for the sake of suffering alone, but for the knowledge that suffering brought.

Most Greek tragedies included a chorus; a group of masked performers who commented on the action and helped the audience process its significance. Such understanding was part of the Greek concept of catharsis, which held that experiencing intense emotions in a safe setting generated a healthy sort of emotional cleaning that renewed the spirit.

What makes a story/a character a greek tragedy?

While the basic elements of a Greek tragedy, like the focus on a hero's downfall and the presence of hubris/ a tragic flaw, are commonly found in literary works today, not every story can be considered a Greek tragedy.

The Greek tragedy existed within a specific cultural context and was influenced by the religious and philosophical traditions of the ancient Greeks.

As I mentioned above Greek tragedies often featured a hero or central character who was doomed to suffer a tragic downfall due to a combination of personal flaws, such as hubris or lack of humility, and outside forces, such as the interference of the gods.

These characters were often portrayed as larger than life, with a level of nobility and grandeur that set them apart from the average person.

While some modern stories may feature similar elements to Greek tragedies (like the focus on a central character's fall from grace or a tragic downfall due to personal flaws) they aren't necessarily categorized as Greek tragedies, because of the specific cultural and historical context in which the Greek tragedy emerged is an integral part of what made it unique and distinct from other forms of storytelling.

What differences greek tragedy have with Shakespearean tragedy and any "tragic" story?

For Shakespearean tragedies, i can only tell you my observation as a reader because I haven't actually studied them as a seperate subject.

From my perspective the difference between Shakespearean tragedies to Greek ones is that they often feature stronger themes of romance, political intrigue, and social commentary. Therefore they tend to be more character-driven than plot-driven, with the main character facing a tragic end due to their own choices that they make rather than due to the will of the gods or the workings of fate.

As to the differences between those two and any tragic story is: context

As I mentioned earlier the cultural and historical context is an integral part of what makes Greek tragedy unique.

So the difference between that and any "tragic" story are the cultural elements that are missing.

In general, "any" tragic story is one that features a character attempting to overcome a personal flaw or face a challenge, but ultimately succumbs to their own flaws or to forces beyond their control.

A great example of a fictional character that possesses all the requirement to be categorized as a tragic one is Anakin Skywalker from the Star Wars series. His character's downfall does mimic a bit of a Greek tragedy, but of course we can't call his story an actual Greek tragedy because by the end he gets a redemption and there are no Greek elements in his story in the first place. Still parallels can be made to certain parts but he's still just a tragic character.

I think overall people on the internet have this idea that calling a character's story a "tragedy" is less significant than calling it a "Greek tragedy," which is completely false, because while Greek tragedies are one of the most well-known examples of tragedy in the world of literature, there are many other forms of tragedy that have emerged from various cultures throughout history.

Each type of tragedy has its own distinct qualities and themes, and the variety of tragic stories that exist today prove the appeal and power tragedies have as a literary form.

And to bring it back to hotd fandom, there are very few characters whose journey we see and can call their story a tragedy in the book. A thrown away line here and there to a background character does not make their "story" a tragedy because you need to see the actual journey of the character to know if their story can be categorized as that.

[navree]

Can you explain what you mean by a mix of dany and a self-insert oc? Because I don't really see any resemblance between daenerys and rhaenyra since their backstories are totally different. I'm a show watcher only, but I don't mind spoilers. So, can you tell me if this is a thing or not?

Sure no pb!

Thing is, you're actually bang on the money. Dany and Rhaenyra are very different characters, their connections are entirely superficial; they're both Targaryen female throne claimants, and Daenerys is a descendant of Rhaenyra through her second child by Daemon, Viserys (eventually Viserys II), but that's the only thing that they have in common. Dany as a character is entirely different from Rhaenyra, she has a much firmer and more developed sense of justice, she cares deeply for the common people and the plight of the marginalized than Rhaenyra ever does, and she intimately understands what it means to be disadvantaged on the subject of gender and class and sexuality that Rhaenyra, from her position of privilege that she has held her entire life, keenly lacks. Dany grew up impoverished and abused and was literally sold into slavery at thirteen years old; Rhaenyra grew up royal and coddled and in a much greater position of power throughout her childhood than Dany ever got. They're nothing alike, and their stories are entirley different, even in terms of how they approach leadership and rule (in F&B Rhaenyra's reign is shockingly bad because she's exceedingly brutal and turns the population of King's Landing against her, whereas Dany is a lot more cognizant of needing the people on her side, due to having taken her throne in Meereen by right of persuasion and conquest as opposed to Rhaenyra assuming the throne should be handed to her because her dad said so, and Dany is a much gentler ruler who actually denounces the torture Rhaenyra relies on throughout her half-year queenship).

The thing is, the crucial key thing to remember in all of this, is that fandom is a breeding ground for stupidity. Fandoms, especially these days, rarely allow for any sort of nuance or understanding of intricacies, and it therefore breeds people who have a tendency to run their mouths without knowing literally anything of what they're talking about. So a lot of people saw that Dany was a Targaryen woman who called herself queen, and Rhaenyra was a Targaryen woman who called herself queen, and just went "oh wow they're so similar1!111!!!!!!11" without actually examining these characters as, you know, characters. And they don't really want to, because they don't actually care about these characters, they care about being right. That's why so many Team Black stans have a tendency to start creating moral equivalencies between characters people enjoy and who they are in real life, which is why you get things like "if you like Aegon you support rapists" or "if you aren't on Rhaenyra's side while watching the show you're sexist" or the people who leave insane comments on the socials of Fabien or Olivia or Tom or Ewan based on the actions of their characters. Liking Rhaenyra as a character, for these people, is about proving that they're morally superior and in the objective "correct" position, so they aren't interested in Rhaenyra's flaws, or the intricacies of her personality, or the reality of her show situation, which is that she's not popular and has no reason to be popular. She needs to be chosen by God and the people, she needs to be Dany-lite because Dany was popular and everyone liked her and was the most iconic face of GOT/ASOIAF, so if Rhaenyra is Dany, Rhaenyra gets all that too through transference.

Even the show's aware that Dany and Rhaenyra are totally different, there's literally an entire episode dedicated to Rhaenyra being selfish and spoiled without thinking of the consequences both to other people and to herself. Rhaenyra even knows that she has flaws, there's a reason why in episode 8 she's the first one to toast to Alicent (beyond her love for her) and why that toast explicitly includes her saying that she is offering Alicent an apology. But again, this isn't about Rhaenyra as a character, or those who enjoy Rhaenyra as a character, it's people who act like fandom is real life and who are more interested in broadcasting purity and being obnoxious than engaging in a piece of fiction either with enjoyment or a critical eye. And it makes them draw incorrect observations that have no basis and then go from there, like acting as if Dany and Rhaenyra are similar and getting upset when people point out that they're not.